Phil Hellmuth is having a rough day at the office. He's already had a few controversies and meltdowns on Live at the Bike, and this time he's doing both simu. If you LOVE Live at the Bike! And want access to exclusive content and emojis, become a YouTube member! Support us here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvO.
The latest tweets from @realkidpoker. 15-time World Series of Poker bracelet winner Phil Hellmuth is selling his Las Vegas home and took to social media to help facilitate the sale. Hellmuth tweeted Monday that he was using friend. By Steve Beauregard. In one of the great ironies of poker, Phil Hellmuth, a man who often acts insane when things aren’t going his way at the tables, is married to a psychologist, Kathy Hellmuth, (or Katherine Sanborn as she is known professionally).
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After failing to win the Purple Jacket at the inaugural Poker Masters
, Daniel Negreanu engaged in a little public self-reflection. In a series of tweets, Negreanu stated that in order for him to compete against the top players in the game he would need to redouble his efforts.Oct-Dec I will be working really hard on my poker game. It's time. The top players today are just too good and I need to improve and I will.
— Daniel Negreanu (@RealKidPoker) September 20, 2017
I'm not embarrassed to say I don't think I'm as good as these guys. They are unreal. In order to improve you have to humble yourself & learn
— Daniel Negreanu (@RealKidPoker) September 20, 2017
Negreanu’s Twitter monologue was widely praised for its humility, but it also caught the attention of one Phil Hellmuth, for an entirely different reason. Suffice it to say, the 14-time World Series of Poker bracelet winner didn’t agree with Negreanu’s assessment about who the best players in the world are.
And one other thing @realkidpoker, you told me in 2009 (and 2011) that the kids were better than you & me at NLHold'em: you were 100% wrong
— phil_hellmuth (@phil_hellmuth) September 20, 2017
This led to an overnight Twitter-storm that included the obligatory insults, goads, and prop-bet challenges, but in the end, nothing was settled and no bets were made.
As Doug Polk put it, this war of words was never going to be anything but exactly that, a war of words.
Poker Twitter Lately – Let's argue about things that can't be proven and talk condescendingly to our opponents
— gN Doug Polk (@DougPolkPoker) September 20, 2017
Here’s why.
How do you measure success?
On a good day, it’s impossible to prove who the best poker player is.
What game are we talking about? No-limit hold’em or mixed games?
What format? Heads-up, short-handed, full ring?
Cash-games or tournaments?
That makes it really tough to rank players. It’s downright impossible when the people arguing measure success (being the best) differently, which is the case here.
As evidenced by his initial tweet to Negreanu, along with his statements over the years, Hellmuth believes survival, and standing the test of time is the true sign of a successful poker player. One of his most constant criticisms of players is to say they won’t be around in X number of years.
On the other hand, Negreanu recognizes the skill level of the current players in the here and now. In the same vein, he sees Hellmuth’s unwillingness to even consider the game has evolved as a major leak – which it most certainly is.
But even more than longevity, Hellmuth views tournament success as beating a large field of opponents, whereas Negreanu’s definition of success seems to be beating the best of the best for high stakes.
Hellmuth thinks his style is better suited to large field no-limit hold’em events with players at all different skill levels, not the 30 player elite fields Negreanu believes the best in the world compete in.
In Phil’s mind, winning bracelets and being in the black makes him the best.
Daniel thinks to be the best you have to compete against and beat the best.
Hellmuth really isn’t saying he’d beat Fedor Holz heads-up, or have a positive expectation in $100k Super-High-Rollers. What he’s saying is that if he and Holz play 100 WSOP Main Events, he’ll (Hellmuth) have better results.
In the end, neither person is right or wrong. Negreanu and Hellmuth simply use different metrics (or weight them differently) when they measure poker success.
Who is the best player?
Twitter Phil Hellmuth
Is Hellmuth the best tournament player? Public opinion (within the poker community) and betting markets would indicate he’s not.
But it depends on what you mean by “the best,” because he may be the best at what he does.
Hellmuth knows his lane, and his lane isn’t competing against the wizards in small-field super-high-roller tournaments. Hellmuth is competing against history, he’s not interested in proving himself against young guns playing in some sort of pissing match.
The debate between Negreanu and Hellmuth is timeless. It’s simply a rehashing of debates I would hear in card rooms before the poker boom that went something like this:
Who’s a better poker player, ‘Mike’ who can beat the toughest game in the casino but tilts off most of his winnings every now and then, or ‘Dave’ who isn’t as good but consistently beats (for more money) slightly inferior competition?
The great thing about poker is they can both be better than the other guy. Just like a cash game player can claim he’s better than a tournament player, or a mixed game player can claim supremacy over a no-limit hold’em specialist.
On his best day Mike is clearly the better player, but in the long-run Dave is more likely to still be playing in 10 years, and still consistently beat the game.
Going back to my early statement: If Phil Hellmuth and Fedor Holz were to play 100 WSOP Main Events (or 100 Colossus type tournaments), I have a sneaky suspicion Phil would have better results.
On the other hand, if they were to play 100 Super-High-Rollers against elite players, I have no doubt Holz would have better results.
Does that make him a better poker player than Phil Hellmuth?
Who knows. It all comes down to your perspective of success in poker.
The Debutant
This was a very eclectic dinner table. To Phil’s left are Cindy Robertson and Kenny Jones, aka ‘Clone’ due to his uncanny resemblance to David Sklansky. Cindy’s cousin had a slot team and she had made a lot of money being on the team. Kenny was a rounder in Reno that was always hunting for profitable propositions but not a very good poker player. A couple years earlier in Reno, he had a thousand dollars, and I started playing him heads-up. He kept beating me so I kept changing the game trying to find one in which I could win. Between my cash and my tab with Kenny I was in $40k. I told him he could win my house and he bragged about it to everyone that came by. Reno did not have any big games, so this game was unbelievable to the regular players. He was in his glory and holding court as many players came by to pay homage. He never stopped chirping, but I didn’t care just as long as he didn’t quit. We played non-stop for 5 days. When I finally busted him, I had lost $2k for the session. That means we had paid about $3k in collections and tips.
Poker Cruise in the Caribbean Jan 1989 L to R circular: Tommy Fischer, Paula Fischer, unk couple, Yosh Nakano, Marsha Waggoner, Robert Turner, Phil Hellmuth, Cindy Robertson, Kenny Jones dinner table.
Kenny was always willing to gamble it all on the slightest advantage. If the count was plus 2, he had been known to bet his entire bankroll. Despite going broke many times, he finally hit a score with slot machines and blackjack. With a $300k bankroll, he had a complete makeover. The transformation was unbelievable. He got a haircut and trimmed his beard. I don’t know who did his shopping, but he upgraded his wardrobe dressing very expensively and tastefully. Sporting a high-end light tan leather jacket, he started dating attractive girls. This was a major contrast to someone who always appeared ungroomed in an old t-shirt and jeans.
Tommy Fischer was an OG. He was the purported character in “Casino” that was Tony Spilotro’s bookmaker. In the movie, Tony had lost a $5k bet. When the bookie tried to collect, Tony claimed he had bet the other side and got paid. Tommy never verified that story, but he did tell me that Spilotro was very difficult to deal with. Many players are tight lipped about the mob days of Las Vegas except to speak in generalities. He was an action player in a poker game but in the gambling world he was very talented. I never bothered to try to learn gin because most of the poker players were already world-class gin players. The learning curb would be too expensive. Of course, Stuey was heads and heels the best player but after that Tommy was in the top 5. He had also played in the mini tour, so he was a top golf hustler. He once asked me, “Do you know when you’re in trouble with a golf match with Doyle?” I replied, “No, when?” Tommy would give a sly smile and said, “When he says, hmmm, I might be able to play that.” The implied meaning is that if Doyle played a match, you were in trouble. He was also the “Expert” in boxing handicapping. Everyone followed his picks. Paula was his 3rd wife and was living the dream playing golf every day retiring as a beautician. Tommy would try to hustle me in a match against his wife. I was a sucker but even I was not that foolish. His standing prop to me was that he would play me hitting the ball on his knees. I respected his game too much and knew how bad I was to ever accept that prop.
Marsha Waggoner and Robert Turner were partners running the hold-em games at the Horseshoe Casino. A couple of years later we all became housemates.
Phil Hellmuth Fight
I think I had met Phil a few months earlier through my friend ‘Big’ Al who was also from Wisconsin. In fact, I might have been the one that told Phil about the cruise but either way I wouldn’t be surprised. After all, it was 31 years ago. The others at the table were not party people so Phil and I would go to the discos after the poker games shut down to have a few drinks and enjoy the night life scene. He was very engaging and straight forward coming from a good family in the Midwest.
The days at sea were spent in the poker room. Another OG on the cruise was Puggy Pearson. I wasn’t that friendly with Puggy yet because I was very wary of his reputation. Something came up where Phil wanted to play Puggy a $10k freeze-out no limit hold-em and spot Puggy the button every hand. All the big games in LA were limit as no limit was primarily played in tournaments and by Texans. Phil wanted credit but Puggy is too old school to extend that to someone he didn’t know. Phil asked me to guarantee him. He told me don’t worry, you will get your money as soon as we get back to LA. He seemed honest and it was only 10k so I told Puggy I would guarantee the money. Puggy won but when Phil wanted to play another one, he refused. Puggy was a steamer, but when he was ahead, he loved to lock it up.
Tommy Fischer said he would take the offer but again he said I would have to guarantee it. I said ok, but when Tommy won, I said that was enough for me. I figured if these guys wanted to win Phil’s money, they should take the risk themselves. I had nothing to gain. If I had been smart, I would have asked for a small freeroll to guarantee the money. Phil did pay me promptly as he had promised but I had made a mental note to myself that this kid’s ego was too big for him to last in this business.
One of the conversations that came up at the dinner table was the World Series of Poker (WSOP). Phil stated that he would win an event at this years WSOP. Here was a newcomer who had no tournament credentials stating he was going to win a tournament at the WSOP. At that time, there was only 4 big tournaments. In addition to the WSOP, there was the Horseshoe’s Hall of Fame in the fall, the Diamond Jim at the Bicycle Casino in LA and the Amarillo Slim Tournament which moved around but it would be in Lake Tahoe coming up shortly after the cruise. Tommy said I’ll bet that, and they agreed on a $3k bet. Robert Turner couldn’t pass up the opportunity, so he also bet $3k. I was thinking this reinforced my earlier assessment about his huge ego. I was also tempted to bet but I figured sweating the $20k was enough.
At Lake Tahoe, during the Slim tournament I was playing in the regular poker room. I got a call on the house phone from Chip. He said who is this kid Phil? He wants credit and he said you would vouch for him. I wasn’t going to make the same mistake and guarantee him, but I said he owed me $20k from the cruise and I got paid immediately. I said he’s got a big ego, but I think he’s honorable. I heard Phil lost up there but as good as his word, he took care of his debt.
Phil Hellmuth Arrested
The next time I saw him was at the Bike just before the WSOP which was April or May in those days. I was playing in a $400-$800 mix game when Phil sauntered in. I said to Stuey, hey do you know that kid. Stuey turned around and turned back and said no why? I smiled as I gave him my punchline. “That kid has a bigger ego than you.” He turned back around for another look, whirled back and gave me an angry dirty look as if to say I’m a two-time world champion with many other tournament wins, the greatest gin player of all-time and the best poker player in the world. Who is he? I chuckled because I got the reaction I expected.
Daniel Negreanu Twitter
Phil had not won a tournament as of the Main Event. It looked like Tommy and Robert were going to win $3k each but then it came down to Phil and Johnny Chan. Johnny was the “Master”. He had just won the last 4 Horseshoe Main Events- 2 Hall of Fames, and 2 WSOP’s consecutively. I had saved 10% with Johnny so I was rooting for him as well. I was watching it on tv from the Golden Nugget when Phil said call, turned over pocket nines and stood up. Johnny had A7 of spades, but I fully expected Johnny to catch an ace. No ace came and Phil Hellmuth was the new World Champ. I thought that was unlucky for Tommy and Robert. My tournament record sucks so I asked Johnny why he made that play as he was giving me $30k in cash. He simply said he just got tired.